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Parishioners of St. Mary's torn by LaFlamme scandal
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Bull Market
Posted by tc theatc 10/26/2003 2:53:44 PM

It must be a bull market, because it appears my stock is rising! ;-)

How did I go from such an object of derision and ridicule, being called pointless, not worthy of dispensing any advice, and told that I provided a service to the church by leaving the priesthood, now, to being thanked and appreciated?

Wow!

All by simply providing a web address!

Hallelujah! Praise Jesus! I think we have a healing! Sisters and brothers, place your hands on your computers, hear me as I testify! Can I get a AMEN!?

:-/

All I can say is, "Bull!" :D

VOTF & Celibacy
Posted by tc theatc 10/25/2003 4:32:33 PM

One can find VOTF chapters by visiting their website: votf.org I'd caution you not to expect much.

I'd be surprised if VOTF adopted a call for the end to celibacy as part of their platform. Their schizophrenia won't allow it. On one hand, they want reform in the church, and they demand the bishops acknowledge them. On the other, they kiss up to the bishops, assuring them they're not a radical group, because they want a seat at the table of governance, they want to "co-manage" the church. Which is it? They have yet to decide, which is probably why they've failed to become anything more than a semi-interesting footnote to the abuse crisis. At its inception, I was an active member. I no longer participate.

As for the celibacy issue, I fail to see how this will be a panacea for all the sexual ills of the church. The church must first learn to deal with sexuality in a healthy, mature way. Until that happens, it doesn't matter if the priests mate with men, women, or spider monkeys. Unhealthy is unhealthy. The view that marriage exists as a sexual outlet, for a guy to get his rocks off, is unhealthy. If I ever told the fabulous Mrs TC that's why I married her, she'd flip me like a cheese omelette. And I'd be sleeping on the couch, alone with my "urges"!

Follow the Money
Posted by William Tiernan 10/28/2003 7:28:53 PM

As they say: "follow the money". John Sacco has put his finger on the correct historical reason for celibacy. In ancient times, it was probably a practical idea, due to the harshness of caring for both a wife and a flock. That harshness was true for the average priest, but not for many Bishops and Popes, who had the $ to afford wives, mistresses, and children, and winked at celibacy.

But it was never Christ's idea, because he chose a mix of single and married men for his first priests.

A second crock is today's propaganda that the RCC cannot afford married priests. Say a married priest costs the church $50,000 a year more than a single one. In a 500 envelope parish, that equates to $2 a week more from each family in the collection basket. If we cannot afford that, perhaps the Church deserves to die because its lay members were unwilling to lift a finger to save it.

Got to run now. My wife is dragging me out to a meeting and she wears the pants in our family.

Re: Piestly Vows
Posted by William Tiernan 10/28/2003 5:49:56 PM

To summarize your post Charles, you believe priests who cannot keep the vow should just leave. It looks like over 20,000 of them have done just that over the past 20 years, and many more will follow.

The ones with the integrity to leave are just the ones the Church needs most. Too many who have stayed on are obviously sexually disfunctional, and are in the preisthood for the wrong reasons.

Keep clinging to your belief in the perfect, celibate priest, and ignore the human biology that God put in all of us. There are some perfect priests, but for the most part, not that many.

This insistence on holding out for perfection, I think, has led to many of the molestations you most oppose. It is not the entire cure to stop molestations, but it will help greatly. And as TC points out, if we stop holding priests on pedestals and treat them as fellow humans, that will go a long way as well.

I'll repeat an unanswered challenge in this forum: "why has a molestation scandal not surfaced in any other religion with married clergy"?

Staying On Topic
Posted by William Tiernan 10/28/2003 4:02:25 PM

Charles:
If we went that far off topic, I apologize. It was not intentional.

As they are both adults, I don't know whether the Church has a legal obligation to the women and the child. If he were employed by private industry, would his company have that financial obligation, if the impregnation occured on company property? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer. Certainly our paternity laws hold him financially responsible as an individual.

Having said that, I think the RCC has a moral responsibility to care for the mother and child financially, and as a lay Catholic, my offerings should help pay for it.

But the stupidity and hypocrisy of it all. The Church will probably shun and purge the priest as unfit, when he has only done what 50% of his "celibate" heterosexual priest brethren do regularly. This according to Richard Sipe, a former priest and psychologist who has counseled priests for 30 years. But this particular priest made a human mistake and got caught.

Yet, our church will do everything in its power to retain and protect those priests who molest children. And many Catholic "faithful" will staunchly defend the nonsensical concept of "celibate" priests who are not celibate.

The priest in this affair is perfectly normal, not perverted. He is probably a great priest. If we purged every priest who ever broke his vow with a consenting adult female, we would hardly have a church.

Celibacy is causing too high a percentage of perverts who would bugger little kids to be ordained, and that is the subject at hand.

Best regards

Re: Off the Track
Posted by William Tiernan 10/28/2003 1:05:14 PM

I can't speak for every posting on this thread, but those on the subject of celibacy have EVERYTHING to do with the specific LaFlamme issue.

You ask: "What should become of Laflamme for alledgedly breaking his vows to the church and what is to become of this women who is now being 'battered' by the church's reaction to these disclosures?"

It would be more constructive if you gave us your own opinions on those questions, and others can respond.

Tell Us Specifically
Posted by William Tiernan 10/28/2003 12:43:00 PM

Pauline, please tell us specifically what civil or church laws you would like to see changed as they affect the RCC, which will help reduce molestations. Why are the existings laws bad, and why will your suggestions be better?

As this is a forum of ideas, I would love to hear others opinions as to the fairness of what you recommend. If they make sense, I'll stand up at a VOTF meeting and suggest they consider your position.

Even better, why don't you appear at a local VOTF meeting yourself, and prod them to take a bolder stance? That would be an effective focus for your fury. While you belittle VOTF, I'm not sure how many other organizations are around that can more effectively represent Catholic laity.

More On VOTF
Posted by William Tiernan 10/28/2003 11:06:58 AM

TC makes a good point on the excessive deference historically given Catholic priests. When someone is put on a pedestal, he feels above the law and this encourages molestations.

It is interesting that an association of priests in my area is about to draft a letter to their Bishop calling for Transparent Finances in the Diocese, and the local VOTF chapter has consulted with them, and is about to endorse their action. The national VOTF website now specifically advocates open financial disclosure, and implies that is a goal they will work for.

Transparent Finances at all Church levels is one step toward reducing that deference. While I am not ready yet to enthusistically endorse VOTF, it appears they are indeed moving in the right direction, and more activist than some wish to believe. I accept your bet of 5 pound lobsters TC, that VOTF will be worth something in 5 years, and prefer optimism for the Church over pessimism.

Anyhow, I think I'll attend a few more VOTF meetings just to keep an open mind.

You claim: "....there are other churches with celibate clergy who don't... (abuse). What other churches have celibate clergies?

Priest Shortage and Celibacy
Posted by William Tiernan 10/28/2003 10:37:17 AM

I read some credible statistics a few years back on why priests leave, and why others decide not to enter seminary. The reason was overwhelmingly celibacy. Sorry I didn't keep the source for those who demand "proof". Obviously, the Church itself is not terribly interested in publishing such statistics.

Here's one interesting site: http://www.rentapriest.com/CITI.htm
Dick Haggett tells us: "Catholics had been conditioned to expect an automatic "change of guard" (pastor) every few years in their parish. All of a sudden with no explanation, a new one would show up. No one ever knew why the last one left or where he went. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that 20,000 (400 per state average) had left in only twenty years, 9 out of 10 to marry."

But this is the most interesting of all: http://www.jsonline.com/lifestyle/religion/aug03/165111.asp?format=print. The article is titled: "Married priests win new support/Catholic clergy groups expected to champion Milwaukee movement", and is dated: Aug 26, 2003.

It seems 160 Milwaukee area priests signed a letter to their Bishop, calling for Married Priests. Priests Associations in New York, Boston, Chicago and two other dioceses are considering similar actions.

That most priests leave due to celibacy is more than just my opinion. It appears that is also the opinion of many, many existing priests, and they are in the best position to know the real facts.

Just a Coincidence?
Posted by William Tiernan 10/27/2003 4:22:55 PM

"Whether or not the church has a married clergy has NOTHING to do with the sexual abuse of kids."

Pauline, why then is the RCC the only religious organization with a large scale molestation crisis? If other organizations had widespread molestations, our voracious media would have exposed it by now.

Is this just sheer coincidence? Or a case of the media out to "get" the RCC but wishing to leave other religions alone?

If VOTF has reshaped itself to focus on married priests, perhaps they have done this because of a belief that it is the best way to prevent or reduce future molestations. To date however, married priests is not their official position. Hopefully, that will change.

Opinions on VOTF
Posted by William Tiernan 10/27/2003 11:07:43 AM

I attended my first local VOTF meeting several weeks ago in a nearby Catholic Church. The main speaker was not clergy but a Catholic theologian. The parish priest was in attendence and supportive.

The topic was Vatican 2, and whether it has or has not been implemented. However, much of the discussion centered on Celibacy. The speakers opinion was that mandatory celibacy will be repealed within a decade.... not because the hierarchy or new Pope wants it, but because the Church has absolutely no other way to address the priest shortage.

We can theorize all day long whether married priests molest as much as single ones. I happen to believe married clergy molest far less, and that is why other religions have been free of this uniquely Catholic type of scandal. But the fact is, celibacy is the main reason potential seminary candidates give for not attending, and the main reason existing priests give for leaving.

Catholics who care about constructive change in the Church should keep an open mind toward VOTF. At least they have put a structure of laity in place that is gradually being listened to by many of the hierarchy. What direction that structure eventually takes depends on those who care enough to appear at meetings and express their opinions. The process will take time and patience.

Bickering in a forum like this may be fun, but it alone will not get the job done.

St. Mary's Truly Unique Situation
Posted by William Tiernan 10/24/2003 12:05:06 PM

Tom Barnes rightly asks: "Now, what are we going to do about having a church that is built along more realisitc and practical Chrisitan lines ?"

One answer Tom, is for the laity to pressure the hierarchy for the end of mandatory celibacy, and insist the hierarchy pressure Rome in turn. The only way I can think of is angry letters to your Bishop and withholding donations to the diocese. Money alone will get their attention.

Another way is to attend VOTF meetings and express your opinion that priests must be allowed to marry, and that VOTF must adopt that as a reform they will work for with their combined strength in numbers. Aside from cynical griping, are there any other tangible suggestions out there? Please tell us.

I react with mirth to the article statement: "St. Mary's parishioners are stunned..." Can you imagine, they had a grown male priest physically attracted to a grown female living in the same residence? How strange! It's high time devout lay Catholics and Rome removed their heads from another part of their anatomy. God made us all with a sex drive, yet our Church denies it's existence in priests, and believes prayer is the only answer to declining priestly vocations.

While the St. Mary's priest made a stupid, stupid mistake, I prefer him by far to one who takes out his passions by molesting innocent children.

It wasn't meant to be sarcastic.
Posted by Linda Patton 10/27/2003 4:28:04 AM

Pauline & TC - What I said wasn't meant to be sarcastic, but sometimes words can be misconstrued when you don't know the person. That works both ways!

Have a good week!

I think you missed your calling.
Posted by Linda Patton 10/26/2003 8:59:48 PM

TC - Maybe you should think about being a comedian. You seem to enjoy center stage on this internet forum.

I bet your homilies were great back when you were a priest. No one was falling asleep in THOSE pews!

Oh, and by the way.....thanks again for taking the time to give me information about VOTF. That was so kind of you.

Peace TC. Let's leave the animosity to those people who have hard hearts and don't know The Lord. Shall we?

Thanks TC for the information.
Posted by Linda Patton 10/25/2003 6:47:44 PM

Thanks TC for the information. I will check out the website for VOTF and I'm also trying to get in touch with a couple who was mentioned in a recent article on abuse tracker, who are members of VOTF and who belong to a parish only 20 minutes from where I live.

I'm sure that members of VOTF are very committed to making a positive difference in our Church. But they're in a very delicate position. They have to be firm and convincing but with a loving and respectful heart. Change does not come easy.

As far as celibacy goes....I realize that allowing priests to be married has no bearing on the number of pedophiles or homosexuals in the priesthood. But I've heard of so many seminarians who were excellent students and men of deep faith who decided against the priesthood because their desire for a wife and a family was too great. Why exclude these good men from the priesthood? It doesn't make any sense.

And you're right about the Church and its unhealthy view of sex. They need to have some reputable psychotherapists in the seminaries to enlighten them on this subject.

And we both know that Marriage is about SO much more than just fulfilling our sexual desires. But I do appreciate your sense of humor. Thanks again TC. :)

Great posts Tom & William!!
Posted by Linda Patton 10/25/2003 8:35:06 AM

GREAT POSTS TOM & WILLIAM!! Maybe we can make copies and nail them to the doors of every Catholic Church in all the countries of the world.

It worked for Martin Luther. He's a hero in my eyes. He loved God and His children much more than the institution. And although he broke off and started a new church, he was a catalyst for much needed reform in the Catholic Church and we've all benefited from his courage.

Check out the movie about Martin Luther's life playing in the theaters now. It's pretty good. ("Luther").

How do you find out where your local chapter is of VOTF?

Signed, A devout Catholic who wants to see her Church following more closely in the footsteps of Christ.

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