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Should Gillmor Write About KRD's 404s?

Note: Posts in this forum are in reverse date order -- so the discussion will make the most sense if read from the bottom item up.

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A low standard for journalism
6/9/2002 6:16:52 PM
Posted By: Dave Winer

Tom, that's a good question, and I suppose we must all decide that one for ourselves.

I had a different idea about journalism until last week. Asking those questions and stating my opinion got me a flood of email from professional journalists, leading me to write the piece yesterday where I posited that the reasons most pros got in is pretty equivalent to why webloggers start weblogs.

This thread is focused on Knight Ridder and Dan Gillmor. The only columnist I read at KR is Gillmor. And lately I haven't even been able to read him, because the two-facedenss, the supposed toughness he has when he looks deep into my industry isn't balanced with any support for looking going the other way. When I try to pry open the lid on how his industry works, I get a dismissive "go away I'm busy" -- OK, I get it. I'm not supposed to ask about that. So the line is nowhere in sight. Not only is it not necessary for Dan to explain to his readers what went on, and why, but if we ask about it -- we find our integrity gets challenged. How would you feel if Microsoft, for example, slung mud at Dan for questioning their business practices? Perhaps you wouldn't support them or make excuses for them. Maybe you would.

Don't forget the people who read Dan, and value him as an information source, not just today, but in the past too. He picked 10 product trends in Y2K. What were they? Gone. What were the trends viewed through his filters? He wrote a story about the dotcom mania, several of them, that predict what others are saying now. Gone. He says he took on his management. No record of that on the Web. Evidence wiped. We take Arthur Andersen to court, impose a corporate death penalty on them for doing just that. So now journalism has no greater expectation of integrity? That's quite a low definition of journalism. Too low, imho.

It's not just about Dan. A few people have commented on the second section of the piece. The pros tell me I got it right. No one is watching. That's a very precarious place to be.

Knight Ridder isn't the issue Tom, nor is Dan's feelings and irritation at being asked a few questions, and being told that to at least one reader he doesn't cut the mustard as a journalist until he straightens it out. He can keep his job, and all the bennies that come with it, but in my view, his credibility as a critic of others is virtually nil until he's willing to live up to the same standards he holds us to.

Dan and Mary Tyler Moore
6/9/2002 3:02:24 PM
Posted By: Tom Matrullo

CMS and business decisions are just masks for what's really going on.

As the emitter of intellectual property owned by his corporation, Dan gave up his right to have a say in such ownership decisions when he got hired. This is the actual moral issue here - the ownership of creative craftsmanship - the work of the individual - by corporate entities which have merely a financial, non-intellectual, interest in that work.

Dan can and apparently did reflect publicly on the damage. Does he lose all status as a journalist and become a marketer by virtue of not reflecting? Here's where the suggestion that if one is not a journalist, then one must be a marketer, breaks down.

On the other hand, anyone who suggests that it's absurd for a journalist to publicly analyze a decision by his employer which falls within his area of expertise has swallowed the wrong pill and should be examined for signs of parasitic vampirism. I guess I already said that here.


Content Management my Butt
6/8/2002 1:59:39 PM
Posted By: Alan Herrell - the head lemur

Should Gillmor Write About KRD's 404s?
To please Dave? I don't think so.
A lot of other folks have such as myself have already addressed this issue.

An Apology and A Spanking
Content Management is a business decision.
In the case of Knight Ridder from the outside an extremely poor one.
From the outside it looks that they ran numbers and decided that they could save money by changing all their sites to achieve the holy grail of consistent branding. They have, but it is more along the lines of the MR. ICK sticker you use to keep children away from poison rather than a symbol of quality and trust.


From here it looks like an attempt to single handedly revive the banner advertising market .
Which in the short term looks real good right up to the point that advertisers insist on only paying for click though. CPM as a sales tool has been dead for some time.

Dan Gillmor's column is a case in point. Before the Real Cities "Shroud of Death"(sm), you were presented with three advertisements,. Now it is at least 8. I block ads, so i don't see them, but I will bet that KR counts the request in their calculations for selling ads.

KR's Content manegment business decision looks to be just like what Chris Locke aka Rage Boy said:

"In fact, CONTENT as a corporate label means: "Whatever it is that you put in the void next to the ads in order that your customer, the advertiser, will give you money."

The new KR is a sterling example of the Clown Suit Rule;

'One of the methods used by desperate businesses in need of revenue is to place somebody in a Clown Suit outside their business in hopes of getting folks to stop in. The Clown Suit is an excellent signpost to the impending failure of the business employing them. The only exception to this rule is the Clown Suit Rental Store.'

As for the 404's why bother, they will join the swelling ranks at F***edCompany.com soon enough.



The emotional and financial value of archives
6/7/2002 1:56:49 PM
Posted By: Rafe Needleman

There are few things more depressing to a writer than watching his or her work erased. Currently, the 750 Catch of the Day columns I wrote for Red Herring from 1999 to 2001 are offline, and I can't even post them on my own site (www.catchoday.com) since RH owns and actively controls the copyrights. It's like three years of my life have been wiped off the Web. I haven't written a column about this, as much as I'd like to, because I'm trying to bring the content back online through diplomatic avenues at RH and I don't think that writing about this will help.

In other words, I am not an impartial observer on this topic, as I try to be on other areas of technology. While it may in fact be a good story for me to cover, my strong vested interest in the outcome would seriously tilt my writing on it.

Having been down the road of swapping CMSes and adjusting online content business models several times, I am pretty confident in saying that URLs don't ever HAVE to be broken, although oftentimes keeping them alive through a CMS change requires a technical solution that the business people don't want to pay for. But that's hardly news.

Back up from the business side
6/7/2002 1:32:29 PM
Posted By: Somer Simpson (KRDigital)

As the Product Manager for the KRD CMS and essentially the owner or representative of the business requirements for the product, I can say with absolute certainty that the software is a good, solid platform ( with a few minor kinks we are currently working out) that meets the requirements that were delivered to the Tech team when the project began.

Business rules and decisions were made that resulted in the design, navigation and site structure you currently see. Design and platform functionality are not attached at the hip. Conscious decisions were also made that resulted in broken links across all of the sites. It was in fact decided that those links would be redirected to either a customized 404 page or the homepage. A message was delivered to users explaining our change and they were given alternate methods for finding the content they were looking for, including a site map, archives and NewsLibrary.

So, that being said, let's think logically for a moment, and not blame the technology (something only the coders can truly speak to as they are the only ones who actually know exactly how the system works) for the results of business decisions. Whether those decisions are right or wrong is a matter of opinion. I support my company's business decisions. When it becomes clear that a decision may have been off, we will adjust our product and policies to better the product for the consumer. The platform will support those business decision changes and we will be able to quickly implement those changes because of the flexibility of the technology.

As a side note: Comparing our newly developed CMS in its infant stages to Microsoft Word, a product created by an established software-devlopment company which has been on the market for many years now and is on its 9th or 10th official release, is somewhat of a stretch and certainly unfair.

Impressions are OK, but..
6/7/2002 10:35:28 AM
Posted By: Dave Winer

Adam, you may have that impression but it's not true. Don't miss the bigger part of the story. I'm writing about it right now on Scripting News. Lets see if links work in this comment system. ;->

To Dave Winer
6/7/2002 9:20:20 AM
Posted By: Adam Gaffin

I actually read your piece before I knew about Steve's comments (I admit it: I'm a Scripting News junkie) . The question of Big Media and the Internet is certainly an important one, and one you've been raising for a while, but after reading that specific piece, I came away with the same conclusion that Steve apparently had - that in it you were really going after Gillmor specifically. And I found that unfair to somebody who's been doing his own valiant work to raise important issues about the future of the Internet and technology.

The new system solves all this
6/7/2002 6:43:13 AM
Posted By: Karl Martino (KR Digital)

You're right Dan of course, CMSes can make you do crazy things :)

But as for this system - the URLs of the new system exist for as long as users would like them to exist. Where before that wasn't the always the case with the selection of different CMSes that were in play. And that *is* the factor in what Dave is talking about. Sounds crazy but different sites actually had different CMSes. In some cases, the Merc for example, they were running multiple CMSes! This Salon story only touches on how crazy it was: http://www.salon.com/tech/log/1999/09/16/knight_ridder/index.html

The problem of linkrot is actually *solved* with the new system and not caused by it. We care about simple, clean, bookmarkable links as much, and I'm sure much more then many in the business. No crazy URLs with tons of numbers and commas and question marks. The URLs are predictable. The URLs look like static output, yet the site is actually dynamic and recieves many, many benefits from that. Our links are bookmarkable for as long as the users of the system wish them to be so, and new designs have no effect on that. You may see more redesigns come down the pike (well that's a certainty in the web business) - but you have our word - the URLs will not break under the new system. It's entirely up to the users of the system - the business - to decide how long URLs should last. And that is as it should be. Not a tech person's decision.

The issues in this conversation have nothing to do with the new CMS. In saying this - I'm not saying the CMS is perfect. Far from it. Far from it. And we'll continue to work hard to satisfy our customers. But as for the issues in this conversation - it solves them.




washingtonpost.com urls live forever
6/7/2002 12:04:25 AM
Posted By: Dan Froomkin

Just to chime in here. Using our current CMS system, washingtonpost.com story links live forever. And they're free.
We encourage people looking for old stories to use our paid archive, but if you "clip" a URL for a story or link to it
from a Blog, or send it to a friend, it will work in perpetuity (or at least until our next CMS). We consider this a feature,
not a bug. I personally was horrified at the loss of the KR pages, but CMS can make you do crazy things.

To Adam Gaffin
6/6/2002 8:44:30 PM
Posted By: Dave Winer

To Adam Gaffin, actually my core statement wasn't about Gillmor, Steve Outing chose to focus on that, which is his right. I have nothing to gain by saying Mr X isn't a journalist. In fact until about 1/2 hour before the piece ran I didn't even say who Mr X was. The point is that there's a much greater outage. As the Internet is being exploited by the people who own the media, we cannot depend on their reporters to cover them. It so happens that Dan opened my eyes to this, very clearly. For that I'm grateful. So I'm very concerned whether or not we're hearing the real story (actually that's a gross understatement, I'm sure we're not). This CMS outage was such a simple thing, and it was so totally mishandled. That the outage persists now, four months after the transition, is pretty clear evidence. Hey if Dan can't or won't go into it, why can't we?

Online film piracy
6/6/2002 8:32:18 PM
Posted By: Bob Perdriau

Perhaps a little off topic, but I think a potential example of paying for or influencing press. The May 31 Business Section of the Mercury headlined an article by Dawn Chmielewski addressing entertainment industry concerns with online piracy. It offers only the opinion of some small company called Viant and, of course, another quote from Jack Valenti in which he compares the situation to Armageddon. If you look at the Viant website it is clear the article is a near quote of it's content.

This was either a very slow news day or this article was bought. Jack wouldn't do that would he?

So is Dave Winer a journalist?
6/6/2002 7:39:36 PM
Posted By: Adam Gaffin

I love content-management arguments as much as anybody (especially those involving the software KR is using), but what about Winer's core statement that Gillmor isn't a journalist?

In fact, Gillmor did note the problems in his Weblog. What is he supposed to do? Don a hairshirt and whine about a braindead CMS every day? No doubt that would make Winer feel good (since the change meant Gillmor was no longer using Winer's own software), but I suspect the average reader would much rather see what Gillmor has to say about Microsoft than constant whines about broken URLs.

NY Times is perfect, as far as I know
6/6/2002 7:37:07 PM
Posted By: Dave Winer

Karl, actually the NY Times is the best I've seen at averting linkrot. I'm not sure how they do it, but I've never seen an article from the NY Times disappear from the Web. News.Com is good. The SJ Merc is hands-down the worst, this is not the first time they've tossed the whole archive. It is important. Dan says things that get on the record, and it's important that we, his readers, be able to go back and see what he said in the past, in order to form an opinion about what he's saying today. It could be it was unavoidable (disk crash, operator error) but if there's any way to bring back his archive and redirect the old URLs, it would totally be worth doing so, but only in my opinion. That it hasn't been aired so the readers understand the issue is just plain wrong. I'm beginning to sound like Dan, eh?? ;->

Bad business decision
6/6/2002 6:43:31 PM
Posted By: filch

Surely it was a business decision. There is surely a business reporter who is covering the beat of bad business decisions and this is most assuredly a very bad business decision. Destroying the link equity KR enjoyed is completely nonsensical from any business standpoint unless there is mapping going on and a migration of the archives is coming down the pike. Fortunately this decision will ultimately effect KR through their stock as it becomes increasingly clear that KR is unable to "handle" the technology of operating outside of their normal skill set. As this becomes apparent those holding KR stock will choose instead to hold the stock of KR's competitor(s) which do understand the importance of link equity. The piper will call either way.

Tech is there to serve business
6/6/2002 6:43:31 PM
Posted By: Olivier Travers

"If a company decides to redesign its site including navigation and url structure, that's a business decision: A business decision made for business reasons. Many other companies have redesigned their sites in the past and broken old links to their content in the process. That's not my point anyway. However, the point is, that people should not mix technology (software) with human/business decisions."

Are you saying you actually made the business decision to break your old links with the redesign? Seems like lost business to me any way I look at it. Lost advertising opportunities if the articles were ad-supported (unless the 404 pages themselves carry ads, something advertisers would surely love to be billed for,) lost sales conversion opportunities if articles that were once free moved to paying archives, damaged reputation to the users that have to bear with the link rot, and potential loss of future flow from people who might think your 404-generating redesign might not be the last.

Yes, many other companies have broken links as part of their redesign. However, I have yet to see anyone explain how that supports business. The question at hand is not whether a redesign is a business decision, but rather how the redesign was handled. If we're missing the business case, please enlighten us.

Mix of both
6/6/2002 6:38:09 PM
Posted By: Shelley Powers

Rajiv, you have an excellent point - you can't mix business decisions and software. However, software can enable the transition that can occur when the results of one business decision ( and associated directory and file structure) must give in to the results of another business decision (and associated directory and file structure).

KR had one document management structure and moved to another document management structure. This was a business decision. What they could have done at that point is use technology to handle server-side redirects that would have seamlessly guided the client from one location based on the one document management system, to the document location based on the new document management system.

At the best, the redirects could have been automated, if both systems were regular enough to enable this mapping efficiently and accurately. At the worst, KR might have had to hire temps to manually enter in new locations mapped to old locations.

Once the mapping occurred, the content management system, or even a simple 404 error handler with a simple database and pattern matching, could have redirected folks to the appropriate page.

However, all of this pre-supposes a third business decision - that it was worthwhile for KR to go to possibly extraordinary means to do this mapping, and build in this functionality. It is legitimate for KR to make a business decision that the costs of doing this aren't justified by the loss of business, customer satisfaction, revenue, whatever.

We may not like it, but it is a legitimate business decision.

Returning to original issue - should Dan Gillmor have reported on this? Actually, my memory may be faulty, but I thought he did mention or apologize for the problem. The question really is, should Dan have blasted his boss for doing this. He blasts other companies.

Dan's action, or inaction, didn't impact on the flow of information - in other words, he wasn't the only source of the information. He didn't suppress information; what he did was not give an opinion - there is a big difference.

If I were Dan would I blast my boss? Nope. I would only have strained my relationship with my boss, something that would hurt if I needed the support of my boss to cover a sensitive story whereby I was the only source of information. And what would blasting my boss have bought me? One more voice amidst the clutter of noise.

Now if Dan wrote in such a way that you couldn't identify that he works for KR, and then didn't blast KR, or worse, came out with a compliment on the new system, that would have been loss of integrity. If he blasts a competitor for the same problem, that would have been hypocritical.

But being faulted because he declined to give an opinion about a well known business decision his boss made? I just don't buy it.

I'm not sure where the assumption arose that journalists must cover _every_ story. If journalists have a moral obligation, it's to tell the stories no one else knows, or is willing to cover. To not manipulate facts. To report facts if they cover a story. To report facts if they are the only ones that have them and the information should be in the public domain. To specifically separate fact from opinion.

But to blast your boss because he made a dumb business decision and everyone and their brother knows said boss made a dumb business decision - I would hope that a journalist such as Dan is smarter than that. I'd hate to think I got news from an idiot.



almost any webserver software can manage redirects
6/6/2002 6:35:32 PM
Posted By: Rajiv Pant (KR Digital)

We chose not to preserve those old URLs forever. Look at other media companies' web sites. You can't read articles posted in the NYTimes posted a month ago for free. When many other media sites redesigned parts their sites in the past, old pages were sent to 404s. Those incidents didn't make the press like Knight Ridder's redesign since there were not 30+ major sites changing all at once.

But I'm not here to say whether we should have set up redirects from the old sites to the new ones or not. You folks, as users of our sites, an entitled to an opinion on that and I respect that.

I just want to clarify that our content management system does not have a limitation on the URLs, redirects, site design, etc. In fact, the core of our system is open source -- check it yourself.

Even if our content management system couldn't manage redirects/forwards (which it does), we could have set up those redirects on the web server (Apache) layer.

That is what I mean by separating the software from the business decisions. Of course, our software allows redirects, flexible URLs, etc. like most other good software.



Its both the techs and the bizzies
6/6/2002 6:34:28 PM
Posted By: Rahul Dave

The KN content managed system may be the greatest thing since sliced bread, thats not the point..someone on the software side, and someone on the business side ought to have made sure that old content wasnt lost. Either someone did a horrible job, or that job didnt exist, which is worse...but even worse is the refusal to change it after so many complaints.

As for the links
6/6/2002 6:28:04 PM
Posted By: Karl Martino (KRDigital)

As for changing the design and not changing the links - of course it can do that. It was designed with that in mind.

As for Mr. Ryan's post - please re-read my boss's post. He didn't mean it the way you are parsing it. The system is built according to the requirements that were assigned by business.


Dan has written about the subject
6/6/2002 6:22:48 PM
Posted By: Ralph Brandi

Dave complains that Dan Gillmor hasn't written about Knight Ridder and the broken links. It isn't true.

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/dan_gillmor/ejournal/2631449.htm

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/dan_gillmor/ejournal/2633570.htm

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/business/columnists/dan_gillmor/ejournal/2639548.htm

I looked at the web site for Cofax, the content management system that Knight Ridder wrote (http://www.cofax.org/). One of the main points they make about the system is that it makes it very easy to redirect old URLs to new URLs. So clearly Rajiv Pant, who I understand played a big part in writing that system, is right to say that the decision to break the URLs was a business decision. Another feature of the system is that its URLs don't look like database-driven URLs; they look like static pages.

I don't understand the logic behind it, I think Knight Ridder was wrong, but I don't run their business.

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